im late, but... I think you're missing the point, I understand what you're saying, but what will happen to Decentraland if Pablo has to stop to work for decentraland because he runs out of funds? What are those fantastic games that ask for proposals? I don't see them and this was a very interesting utility for the devs. I have stopped the Spanish Museum manteiancne and events due to the low number of users, who is going to put their time and hard work for free in decentraland or propose something without being paid by a grant at this time? The main focus should be: make it more fun, gain users, and improve the tools so that it is easy to develop fun and different things. This proposal complied with point 3, which in turn would attract more fun and variety. see you!

Open Source SammichGame SDK7 +Community tools This proposal has been ENACTED by a DAO Committee Member (0xfb1afa4dc069ffb47b19dbee196045d508fcd5a2) Vesting Contract Addresses: 0x4C569AA69DcF1aCC5bA3D6369cc5A2CBCE10F810

> If we are going to start paying out NA-level dev salaries for basic projects that could be achieved by most competent devs in a weekend hackathon, we are doomed. I agree with you there and hopefully you never thought that's what I was arguing in favor for. I was using NA dev salaries only as a way to say, "Would this really take 3 months of time for a 6-figure developer?" That said, I think we're just as doomed if we try to build this space age technology with dollar store parts, and to some degree you get what you pay for. That said, if our fear is the DAO losing money due to the falling price of MANA, that implies that the technology as a whole is hurting for investors. And yet there seems to be this sentiment, even towards passed grants, that they aren't being used for the "right" thing, according to one person's opinion or another's. In a sense, VP is directly tied to people's level of investment. So even if we don't like all the grants being passed, you could argue that they did find investors, and are building what those investors want.

We are relying on people who actually understand how to run businesses to build sustainable models on top of DCL, and would much rather grant funds go to those people - funding non-sustainable models actively hurts the ecosystem by giving the illusion of progress on temporary ideas that fall into the void after the maintainer gives up. The DAO is here to supplement and assist when there is mutually beneficial costs, not to fund peoples pet projects or attempts. If DCLDAO was a company, that had specific employees being hired to achieve something, then I'd agree with you - but that's not what _most_ grants are. If we are going to start paying out NA-level dev salaries for basic projects that could be achieved by most competent devs in a weekend hackathon, we are doomed.

>Those devs are usually bringing in 6-7 figure income for their company EACH, hence why they can afford 6-figure salaries - show me a single grant that has that kind of return and maybe it will be worthwhile. Software doesn't just fall from the sky making tens of millions in profit overnight. Someone has to build it first. There is at least some value being provided in building the thing itself. >No, because it was post graduate (I already had my degree) and there are no credits nor points earned for open research performed outside of classes. Forgive me for misunderstanding then. I assumed you meant that you were doing research at the doctoral level for a PhD, for which receiving a grant is not unheard of. >I was paid a small grant to work on and explore things I wanted, so in that sense, yes, I personally benefitted, the same way that our grantees do. If we're depending on that as a reliable model for building Decentraland, we might as well dissolve the DAO and just outsource all the work to India.

No, because we should not be approving low quality grants regardless, scaling up the amount of money doesn't imply we get better devs, as most good devs make 3-4x the average salary with ease. The only thing that would attract the worlds best developers is by having the worlds best metaverse platform, which is open source. Like I said, grants are not intended to be paying someone's salary, nor be competitive with a dev job where you have real accountability and performance metrics. Those devs are usually bringing in 6-7 figure income for their company EACH, hence why they can afford 6-figure salaries - show me a single grant that has that kind of return and maybe it will be worthwhile. > But I assume you were doing this work with the expectation of earning a degree or certificate that would benefit *you personally* , yes? You walked away with something that would (or at least presumably could) result in a financial reward that was greater than your investment of time. No, because it was post graduate (I already had my degree) and there are no credits nor points earned for open research performed outside of classes. I was paid a small grant to work on and explore things I wanted, so in that sense, yes, I personally benefitted, the same way that our grantees do. > So what do you think is the equivalent in Decentraland? If someone decides to build something beneficial to Decentraland, and they do so at a huge discount relative to their market value, what do they get to walk away with that will eventually make them whole? The protocol squad is a great example of where a dev salary was intentionally made, and was well worth it. The idea that in-world content should be something we burn money for, at the rate of a dev salary, is wild. There is no comparison in the real world to that, because it would end in complete loss of investment. We should be happy to burn small amounts of money on grants that have no economical return, culture is still important, but its nonsensical to compare it to IRL dev salaries that actually make a return and build products for a commercially successful business. I would instead turn the question into, if your business is not going to be profitable, or has no real impact on the permanent platform of DCL, or you aren't willing to fund it yourself - why should we fund it at all? I do not see many permanent platform level improvements to DCL coming out of these grants, it has mostly been temporary self-interests. Grants are a supplement to assist for costs, not a piggy bank for people to run their own startup.

> I’ve seen people throw around 6-figure salaries for devs as if grants should be based on that - it’s important to understand, a company where a dev is making 6-figures, that dev is usually returning equal or greater value in income to the company That's just average market value though, at least based on the US. I'm not saying people contributing to Decentraland should be making as much as people building software for rockets or self-driving vehicles. But software engineering is a high-demand skill regardless and if we're only willing to pay below-average rates, aren't we generally going to get below-average results? > For comparison, I spent most summers in post-grad doing university level research as a fully qualified developer w/ work experience, I would write papers that were often peer-reviewed, published, and referenced in future university papers. This work had incredible value, especially as an educational resource. > > The total pay, was $3,000 USD for 3 months of work. But I assume you were doing this work with the expectation of earning a degree or certificate that would benefit *you personally*, yes? You walked away with something that would (or at least presumably could) result in a financial reward that was greater than your investment of time. So what do you think is the equivalent in Decentraland? If someone decides to build something beneficial to Decentraland, and they do so at a huge discount relative to their market value, what do they get to walk away with that will eventually make them whole?

[quote="Unknower, post:26, topic:20170"] alize I was assuming about $10k in gross income per pay period on a biweekly schedule, when in reality that’s more like the average salary for a month. If [/quote] I support Pablo, Golfcraft, Voxters... just not this.. sorry

Still a NO from me since Pablo is using the wrong category for funding of his Gamification project that should be In-world content. He also used 600k of his own votes to barely push this project over the line to make money from an already existing product, in addition to preaching in another new proposal that people cant vote in the dao without going through additional processes and procedures, while passing a test at the end. (just to start! I wonder when things like paying to be added in the process will occur. It is a slippery slope) Also @Ina there are and will be other proposals out there that will bring other games and more diversified games to DCL. Ironically, saying yes to this old game may kill dozens or hundreds of future games in DCL. Just remember when we say YES to something, that means we are saying no to at least 1 other thing. I also dont think Pablo has responded to a single one of my comments on his 4-5 grant proposals yet? Where is the transparency and accountability here? @pablo

I've seen people throw around 6-figure salaries for devs as if grants should be based on that - it's important to understand, a company where a dev is making 6-figures, that dev is usually returning equal or greater value in income to the company - we do not have this with grants, grants are a supplement to assist smaller devs, not to fund peoples entire project/startup and income costs - and should be priced accordingly, often grants I've seen given to devs IRL range from 1-10k. For comparison, I spent most summers in post-grad doing university level research as a fully qualified developer w/ work experience, I would write papers that were often peer-reviewed, published, and referenced in future university papers. This work had incredible value, especially as an educational resource. The total pay, was $3,000 USD for 3 months of work.

Hi all, congratulations on the grant passing. I think there was some misunderstanding on my comment. My comment wasn't intended to shift the direction of this library, or to propose a different one - it was an outline of how specific we really need grants to be in their outline of what is actually going to be built & provided. I outlined what I considered an MVP for a multiplayer game library for Decentraland, I would require a similar outline and specific output list, as well as architecture overviews to be able to assess the grants cost and return. As this grants terminology currently stands, there is no real requirements outlining what we are actually paying for other than open sourcing an older game w/ SDK7, the library itself is sounds like a mono-repo project and not a library with specifically outlined modules that would make it easily reusable for open source. It would be great if we can have more clarity as I still don't really understand what part is generic that could be reused, it seems like a hardcoded game with specific intent - and while yes some of that code could be repurposed, it not being in a library, or have a start up script, or documented format will make that very difficult. While it is nice to support original creators in upgrading and open sourcing their older games - it does not benefit the community to the degree of 48k - please outline the specific library functionality and full architecture as part of this so we can understand what we are voting on - I understand it's too late for this grant but the fact grants are passing without a clear list, structure and architecture diagrams on what is being provided is a fundamental flaw.

It is still No for me, because personally if I wanted to try and create a multiplayer game I wouldn't use those tools. I am sure it is no issue to pay for server costs if you have received hundreds of thousands grant money (360K ?), but for a regular person just playing around it would still be a lot. Also have you read SDK 7 manifesto (https://decentraland.org/blog/announcement/a-new-decentraland-sdk-is-on-the-horizon-the-sdk-7-manifesto)? Would the new improvements in SDK7 make your tools redundant? **Easier multiplayer experiences**: Making a multiplayer Decentraland scene is one of the hardest challenges creators run into today. As a result, most content creators only create single-player experiences, which is unfortunate given that the metaverse is meant to be a social space to meet with others. To make creating multiplayer experiences easier, SDK 7 is designed to synchronize changes over the network, implementing sophisticated, conflict-free replication algorithms. This will be a default behavior so that creators won’t need to work out how to do this. In addition to enabling multiplayer experiences, this feature will also allow scenes to store a persistent scene state in servers. For example, if a player opens a door and then leaves, a server will remember that the door was left open, and players who come in later should find it open as well." **New communications technologies**: The current P2P architecture is very decentralized and lightweight in terms of servers and infrastructure, but it has proven to not be enough for the kind of near-real-time interaction needed for first-person shooters and other competitive games. SDK 7 will implement the current P2P networking mode by default, but it will also open the door to an on-the-fly switching of communication technologies. Content creators will be able to handle their own matchmaking between players, or even make private connections. Since content creators will be able to plug in any technology that matches the interface, they will be able to use faster (more centralized) communication technologies.

[quote="lastraum, post:40, topic:20170"] Pablo voted 600k on his own proposal [/quote] I believe the majority of the active DAO community considers voting for yourself to be in bad faith, especially when doing it with large amounts of delegated VP. That isn't to say that other people never do it, but until now the consensus has been that people should not be doing such self serving things if they really value the communities input.

I've waited to comment on this proposal as Last Slice currently has a competing proposal in this category. However, I've seen that Pablo voted 600k on his own proposal, but not on ours; therefore I don't feel like my bias is unwarranted anymore. Removing his 600k votes would make his proposal fail. I don't believe there's anyone on the In World Builder project who has voted for their project as well (some have actually abstained with a lot of vp). Secondly, I really admire your work and think a toolset of multiplayer services is needed. I just cannot agree with the language in this proposal. It sounds like you've made a game, it was successful, it has useful tools, and now you want to be compensated for "open sourcing" those libraries and migrating to sdk7. I have two concerns with this. Firstly, if you want to "open source" it, and it's already built, then just switch the github repo to "public." - this is very over simplified to highlight the fact that you're looking to receive compensation for something you've already built. Secondly, I am still unsure the best path forward for using grant funds to migrate scenes to sdk7. It will become necessary regardless, so I'm not sure using grant funds for a necessary migration are a best use of funds. Again, I'm 50/50 on this because I know the lift it takes to get to sdk7. I would have been much more in favor of this proposal if it were worded differently.

[quote="Shiny, post:38, topic:20170"] haven’t seen it used in anywhere. [/quote] If others doesn't have attention or didn't work it doesn't mean this won't work. The product has demonstrated it works, people have fun, you can ask anyone that has tested it. I'm sure you will find previous grants with bigger fundings with zero impact, convincing marketing promises on proposals and lobbies, but that then, no users or even too buggy or that the product doesnt work, agree, I think there is enough background and previous work to know that this proposal is different. No one reached me to put that game you link in Golfcraft scene, the key point is that is necessary to provide tools and libraries, as the 4th month defines, we will reach different people and creators to support them to integrate it in their scenes or modify the game in most straighfoward possible way. Also, we will be doing a hackaton (idea came after writing the proposal), for pixel artists and for programmers. Voxters is also an open-source project with 0 fund, and people integrated it in quite scenes, tools and support were provided, also participated in a hackaton: https://twitter.com/Pablo_es/status/1406019767463563270 https://twitter.com/Pablo_es/status/1400589917827256323 https://twitter.com/hashtag/voxters

Voted no, because 48k seems way too much for 4 months of work. Also I don't think there are a lot of cases where some open-sourced games gets reused by community. For example this card game module for 3K (https://governance.decentraland.org/proposal/?id=0db018f0-3e25-11ed-ae53-272ba72c798d), haven't seen it used in anywhere.

@pablo and I have spoken in private about it quite a bit. I have taken a lot of time to think about how to value development, spoken to other devs and comm members and reconsidered my position.I am just 1 person and not always right but I am entitled to my opinion like anyone else. I see value in this prop im just not 100% sure this is the best packaging (have discussed with Pablo) I changed my vote to abstain for this reason, still there 6.4 million no votes so not sure why i'm being singled out. I would like to see pablo get a grant in the future for development. I am a big fan of all the work Pablo has done and wish him much luck and success in the future.

What format would you support it in?

@BET yeah, there isn't any problem with @dogman , he had his doubts, and he more or less understood the proposal, it's fine. I appreciate the support a lot, but also there can be space for constructive critics or voting freedom, I think he simply cares about Decentraland well being like others, but with his own thinking. It is so reconforting finding so supportive people @BET thx a lot man.

why single me out lol? Like I said I support pablo and the work he has done would support this this proposal in a different format.

btw, come to party today, last week I tried to quick-fix things that were broken by latest updates. Who didn't play can have an idea of the sensations that can be extended to other products with the tools this proposal will bring, ... and remember that is not limited to 2D. https://events.decentraland.org/event/?id=b8a50945-df0f-4490-a6b7-9c54ed473a47

Thank you for that. I think the same of your work and didn't comment to try to sway people one way or another, just to provide some insight on how much time this equates to in "average developer hours". It's up to them to decide what average is and who falls above it or below it, I think. Best of luck.

[quote="Unknower, post:30, topic:20170"] I have spent the last two days putting together a pretty comprehensive documentation wiki for VLM though, and would love to help you get set up if you’d like to use it. [/quote] Ok thanks , now I see better what the product is about, I wasnt aware that you were using VLM on that party. Cool product for decentraland as it is now for sure. Sorry for doubting, you work is totally respectable.

Before I even submitted my grant proposal, it had been in use at Dollhouse, casa Roustan, Samsung 837x, and House of Sam as a prototype for many months. While there are certainly still some bugs I need to address in the first public release, most of them seem to resolved by running away from the scene and coming back, which is still a lot easier than re-deploying. I think everyone who attended Roustan's party on Saturday and saw their photos get added to my 50 meter billboard in real time can attest to the fact that it is indeed working. Thanks to the new DCL Camera, receipts provided below! I have spent the last two days putting together a pretty comprehensive documentation wiki for VLM though, and would love to help you get set up if you'd like to use it. https://vimeo.com/856045580/8614890942 https://reels.decentraland.org/7b88daa3-d419-4d4c-be63-532a7e14970f https://reels.decentraland.org/6715f48c-740d-44ab-8337-ee61ca44f1a9 https://reels.decentraland.org/66a19885-5a43-4fbe-970c-5357867b3112 Funny thing though...isn't this you? https://reels.decentraland.org/3e2495e1-65fc-43aa-a621-2a8c4c175e09 ...and isn't this you...on the billboard? https://reels.decentraland.org/45cbfcbf-546c-4ad1-8a44-d8d6e9a06ecf

[quote="Unknower, post:27, topic:20170"] VLM has proven to be [/quote] I don't want to fight with you, but... how is it proven? I tested it and it wasn't working, how can I make it work then? anyway, maybe this conversation should go to another chat, also it's not good to compare meat with velocity. I repeat from the previous comment: I will test it myself, I don’t want words nor presentations, I want action, prove your words with the product itself. ... or If you can't, prove with other product you have built already.